Comments on: The Trouble With V-necks, Pt. 1 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/ A Collection of Blogs Tue, 10 Jan 2012 21:37:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Colin Flanigan http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/#comment-741 Colin Flanigan Fri, 02 Jul 2010 20:04:28 +0000 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/?p=672#comment-741 Nate, I think you just wrapped up my original post in a beautiful, succinct, and much less ambiguous nutshell. Totally agree. And you can never be too self-aware. Unless you're a robot. Then you're the Terminator at the end of Terminator 2, and that's just sad. Nate, I think you just wrapped up my original post in a beautiful, succinct, and much less ambiguous nutshell. Totally agree.

And you can never be too self-aware. Unless you’re a robot. Then you’re the Terminator at the end of Terminator 2, and that’s just sad.

]]> By: Nate Gass http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/#comment-739 Nate Gass Fri, 02 Jul 2010 06:00:14 +0000 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/?p=672#comment-739 It seems that on the surface this comment thread could be viewed as a silly topic to be debating. But surfaces can be deceiving, and the topic of "hipsters" touches on some very fascinating thoughts on identity. For me, the idea of being labeled a "hipster" is scary because I don't like the idea of my identity being more wrapped up in what I consume over what I do or believe. Evan- perhaps the reason you don't see a problem with the "hipster" subculture is because you see some sort of positive ideology in it. However, it seems like the rest of us have failed to see any belief system or ideology AT ALL behind the "hipsters" that doesn't boil down to elitism based on little more than the buzz of the moment. With every other subculture mentioned, one could at least attempt to summarize what they "stood for" even if that stand came with some negative connotations. And the art and fashion was an outpouring of the group's basic principles. I guess I just have a hard time figuring out if "hipsters" really stand for anything other than trends, which is what feels so empty about the label. However, like the rest of you I must admit that to a degree I am affiliated with the "hipster" subculture. And I don't know if there's much to be done about that other than to evaluate myself and make sure that my identity surpasses my tastes. If I've reached that point, people can call me whatever they want (except for loser, that still hurts). Then my hope is to use my tastes and build upon them to create new art that is an expression of my identity. ....or perhaps all I just said is bullshit and I just need to be less self aware. It seems that on the surface this comment thread could be viewed as a silly topic to be debating. But surfaces can be deceiving, and the topic of “hipsters” touches on some very fascinating thoughts on identity.
For me, the idea of being labeled a “hipster” is scary because I don’t like the idea of my identity being more wrapped up in what I consume over what I do or believe.
Evan- perhaps the reason you don’t see a problem with the “hipster” subculture is because you see some sort of positive ideology in it. However, it seems like the rest of us have failed to see any belief system or ideology AT ALL behind the “hipsters” that doesn’t boil down to elitism based on little more than the buzz of the moment.
With every other subculture mentioned, one could at least attempt to summarize what they “stood for” even if that stand came with some negative connotations. And the art and fashion was an outpouring of the group’s basic principles. I guess I just have a hard time figuring out if “hipsters” really stand for anything other than trends, which is what feels so empty about the label.
However, like the rest of you I must admit that to a degree I am affiliated with the “hipster” subculture. And I don’t know if there’s much to be done about that other than to evaluate myself and make sure that my identity surpasses my tastes. If I’ve reached that point, people can call me whatever they want (except for loser, that still hurts). Then my hope is to use my tastes and build upon them to create new art that is an expression of my identity.

….or perhaps all I just said is bullshit and I just need to be less self aware.

]]> By: Colin Flanigan http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/#comment-737 Colin Flanigan Fri, 02 Jul 2010 01:59:48 +0000 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/?p=672#comment-737 Wow, I'm happy to have such long and well thought out comments here. Personally, I don't think the lesson here is "don't make judgments based on clothing" or youthful subcultures being self-centered, or even the "hipster" culture being devoid of relevant contributions to our society while having an abundance of criticism about it. The main problems I tried to adress in the article were these: 1) It pays to be genuine. Like what you like because you like it, do what you do because you're good at it, and because you like it. One of the things that bothers me most about nearly ANY subculture (but hipsters, especially, simply because I kind of am one - but only in this weird, roundabout way) is that its members are defined seemingly more by their subculture than by their individual personality. There is a lack of individual identity - of REASONING behind the things that people find themselves drawn to, and a severe lack of self-analyzation. Tuna swimming upstream with Salmon just because the Salmon are doing it and it seems like a good idea - stuff like that. and 2) What is it about a person that assigns them to subcultures like hipsters? Is it the clothing? The music and the film? If that's the case, then I'm not that upset about my apparent "fitting in" to that culture. However, if this culture is defined by its reckless hedonism, its snub-nosed approach to other subcultures and its staunch antagonism, then I'd really prefer not to be lumped in with all those cats. In fact, I really did spend a good year trying to teach myself not to hate on other people's music and can now listen to Lady GaGa and Usher on the radio...and sometimes ENJOY it. But then, how would you know that I don't fit into that aspect of the subculture without getting past the fact that I dress a little like a hipster and I like their music and their movies? So I suppose Stephen's point about not judging people based on clothing is pertinent, but I think here a stronger principal applies:Try not to judge people without getting to know them first - even if it's only a first impression. But then, maybe that's too giving...Who knows? Either way, glad people got enough out of this to have such rich discussion about it. Wow, I’m happy to have such long and well thought out comments here.
Personally, I don’t think the lesson here is “don’t make judgments based on clothing” or youthful subcultures being self-centered, or even the “hipster” culture being devoid of relevant contributions to our society while having an abundance of criticism about it.
The main problems I tried to adress in the article were these:
1) It pays to be genuine. Like what you like because you like it, do what you do because you’re good at it, and because you like it. One of the things that bothers me most about nearly ANY subculture (but hipsters, especially, simply because I kind of am one – but only in this weird, roundabout way) is that its members are defined seemingly more by their subculture than by their individual personality. There is a lack of individual identity – of REASONING behind the things that people find themselves drawn to, and a severe lack of self-analyzation. Tuna swimming upstream with Salmon just because the Salmon are doing it and it seems like a good idea – stuff like that.

and
2) What is it about a person that assigns them to subcultures like hipsters? Is it the clothing? The music and the film? If that’s the case, then I’m not that upset about my apparent “fitting in” to that culture. However, if this culture is defined by its reckless hedonism, its snub-nosed approach to other subcultures and its staunch antagonism, then I’d really prefer not to be lumped in with all those cats. In fact, I really did spend a good year trying to teach myself not to hate on other people’s music and can now listen to Lady GaGa and Usher on the radio…and sometimes ENJOY it.

But then, how would you know that I don’t fit into that aspect of the subculture without getting past the fact that I dress a little like a hipster and I like their music and their movies?
So I suppose Stephen’s point about not judging people based on clothing is pertinent, but I think here a stronger principal applies:Try not to judge people without getting to know them first – even if it’s only a first impression. But then, maybe that’s too giving…Who knows?

Either way, glad people got enough out of this to have such rich discussion about it.

]]> By: Stephen Hull http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/#comment-736 Stephen Hull Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:10:50 +0000 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/?p=672#comment-736 A tiny percentage of people who are labeled as hipsters would self-identify as such, even people in the black holes of hip, places like Wicker Park. The noisiest bitching about hipsters I've heard were from people that looked like they wanted to be American Apparel models. It's a weird subculture (period, really, but also) that has most of its constituents denying their place in it. I've heard Phil ask if a hipster would still be a hipster if they were naked (and bald, I guess). Then they'd just be a nude insufferable jerk, if all the stereotypes are true. But are they? I haven't met enough people that could fit the bill to make an assessment. I just look at how people dress and fill in the blanks. I feel bad about this, but at the same time, everything we wear gets interpreted. All of our fashion and artistic proclivities identify us with some group or another, so do the people that really go out of their way to dress like they're too cool for school really trying to say that they're unhappy, apathetic elitists? Maybe the lesson here is "don't make judgments based on clothing" which is something I feel like I should have learned when I was ten. If we're really in a new golden age, we should probably identify the people involved and making that age happen as something else. I'm uncomfortable with a large, expensive clothing company coming to mind when we talk about the people involved in and championing some pretty incredible and art. A tiny percentage of people who are labeled as hipsters would self-identify as such, even people in the black holes of hip, places like Wicker Park. The noisiest bitching about hipsters I’ve heard were from people that looked like they wanted to be American Apparel models. It’s a weird subculture (period, really, but also) that has most of its constituents denying their place in it.

I’ve heard Phil ask if a hipster would still be a hipster if they were naked (and bald, I guess). Then they’d just be a nude insufferable jerk, if all the stereotypes are true. But are they? I haven’t met enough people that could fit the bill to make an assessment. I just look at how people dress and fill in the blanks. I feel bad about this, but at the same time, everything we wear gets interpreted. All of our fashion and artistic proclivities identify us with some group or another, so do the people that really go out of their way to dress like they’re too cool for school really trying to say that they’re unhappy, apathetic elitists?

Maybe the lesson here is “don’t make judgments based on clothing” which is something I feel like I should have learned when I was ten.

If we’re really in a new golden age, we should probably identify the people involved and making that age happen as something else. I’m uncomfortable with a large, expensive clothing company coming to mind when we talk about the people involved in and championing some pretty incredible and art.

]]> By: Evan Mather http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/#comment-732 Evan Mather Thu, 01 Jul 2010 11:57:22 +0000 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/?p=672#comment-732 I think all youth subcultures let their importance go to their head, and I would argue that the current youth culture, currently branded as "hipsters" DO have stuff to offer. Are you saying that we aren't living in a near Golden Age (or at least Silver Age) of independent rock music? We're living in a world where artists like Wilco, Arcade Fire and Neko Case are getting notable attention. And not just music - the films of Wes Anderson, PT Anderson, Spike Jonze are an obvious influence/outcome of that cultural movement. I think any of us can be labeled hipsters, just as any young people who were thoroughly engaged with art (music, film, politics, and all the places they intersect) in the late 60s would be considered hippies, or the same with the mid-late 70s and the punk movement, or even back in the 50s and the beatniks. (Hey, weren't THEY called hipsters, too?) And those movements definitely had their own negative stereotypes, many of which were true. The problem with youth cultures is that they are mostly populated with YOUTH, who tend to, on the whole, be a bit self-centered, especially today, but just look back. Hippies DID do a lot of drugs and smelled bad, but they had great taste in music and real political awareness. And it's basically impossible to argue that Beatniks of the 50s were any less pretentious and image-conscious than hipsters today. And punk? They were spoiled little rich shits who thought it would be fun to slum it and made music that reflected their disillusionment, reinventing the pop landscape while they were at it. All American youth culture has been about children of the fairly affluent, who have the means to be all artistic and shit, rejecting what's come before them and inventing something new, before they grow up and turn into their parents. Today, we still see all of those as valid artistic movements. Who's to say that the "hipster" movement is any less valid? In 20 years, will we be remembered for our douchey v-neck tshirts, or for being instrumental in electing the nation's first black president? For our signature fashionista eyewear, or the incredible music we brought to the forefront? For our rampant (and obnoxious) veganism, or for a resurgence of new film makers that arguably rivals the early 70s New Hollywood? Yet at the same time, I totally agree - I hate hipsters. I hate those nasty aspects that I see in them, and sometimes see in myself. But I still wouldn't sell us short so easily. I think all youth subcultures let their importance go to their head, and I would argue that the current youth culture, currently branded as “hipsters” DO have stuff to offer. Are you saying that we aren’t living in a near Golden Age (or at least Silver Age) of independent rock music? We’re living in a world where artists like Wilco, Arcade Fire and Neko Case are getting notable attention. And not just music – the films of Wes Anderson, PT Anderson, Spike Jonze are an obvious influence/outcome of that cultural movement. I think any of us can be labeled hipsters, just as any young people who were thoroughly engaged with art (music, film, politics, and all the places they intersect) in the late 60s would be considered hippies, or the same with the mid-late 70s and the punk movement, or even back in the 50s and the beatniks. (Hey, weren’t THEY called hipsters, too?) And those movements definitely had their own negative stereotypes, many of which were true.

The problem with youth cultures is that they are mostly populated with YOUTH, who tend to, on the whole, be a bit self-centered, especially today, but just look back. Hippies DID do a lot of drugs and smelled bad, but they had great taste in music and real political awareness. And it’s basically impossible to argue that Beatniks of the 50s were any less pretentious and image-conscious than hipsters today. And punk? They were spoiled little rich shits who thought it would be fun to slum it and made music that reflected their disillusionment, reinventing the pop landscape while they were at it. All American youth culture has been about children of the fairly affluent, who have the means to be all artistic and shit, rejecting what’s come before them and inventing something new, before they grow up and turn into their parents. Today, we still see all of those as valid artistic movements. Who’s to say that the “hipster” movement is any less valid? In 20 years, will we be remembered for our douchey v-neck tshirts, or for being instrumental in electing the nation’s first black president? For our signature fashionista eyewear, or the incredible music we brought to the forefront? For our rampant (and obnoxious) veganism, or for a resurgence of new film makers that arguably rivals the early 70s New Hollywood?

Yet at the same time, I totally agree – I hate hipsters. I hate those nasty aspects that I see in them, and sometimes see in myself. But I still wouldn’t sell us short so easily.

]]> By: Tim Yoder http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/blog/the-trouble-with-v-necks-pt-1/#comment-731 Tim Yoder Thu, 01 Jul 2010 04:39:05 +0000 http://www.gatherroundthemic.com/?p=672#comment-731 If I had to try and put my finger on what it is about the hipster subculture I dislike so much I would point to its protracted adolescent attitude, particularly its cynicism. It critiques and criticizes but it has very little in itself to offer. Even when it affirms something-music, film, fashion-the affirmation itself serves partly to reject everything else that is mainstream or not up to its standards. Critiquing without creating is adolescent because it does not cultivate or take responsibility for anything. I think that the second you begin to create something you cross over this line of cynicism because you put yourself out there, vulnerable to critique and responsible for your creation. If I had to try and put my finger on what it is about the hipster subculture I dislike so much I would point to its protracted adolescent attitude, particularly its cynicism. It critiques and criticizes but it has very little in itself to offer. Even when it affirms something-music, film, fashion-the affirmation itself serves partly to reject everything else that is mainstream or not up to its standards. Critiquing without creating is adolescent because it does not cultivate or take responsibility for anything. I think that the second you begin to create something you cross over this line of cynicism because you put yourself out there, vulnerable to critique and responsible for your creation.

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